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Talk:War of the Throne
After talking with Malus in detail over this article, there are some concerns with it's existence and the coup that took Ozzy from power. --ImperialFH 13:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC) * What are the concerns? -- Xerxes 14:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC) **That the Whitecoats never existed and that Lorn's intention was a return to a more traditional Empire than seems to be implied on the Wiki. --ImperialFH 14:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC) *** My only personal knowledge of these events are documented in the logs for the battle at Selene. I can't speak to Lorn's intentions (save that the wiki should maintain neutrality and present both viewpoints in the event of in-universe conflict), nor did I ever witness any stormtroopers clad all in white. I believe Danik might have coined the whitecoat moniker, which I used in descriptions when finally posting the logs. -- Xerxes 14:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC) ****Right, I agree, about the Neutral PoV, I am going to work with Malus and get a lot of his logs posted and we can see more of what actually happened and what has been added as explanatory filler.--ImperialFH 14:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC) I read over this article again... the only thing I can see that may be in dispute is the Whitecoats moniker, which was actually coined by Hawke ;p In all fairness, if you can come up with a better name, then please do - I seriously doubt you guys called yourselves "Lorn's men" or something to that effect, and even if you didn't have a name for yourselves then, history would, in time, apply an appropiate nickname at some point. As for the rest, I don't see anything in this article that can really be disputed... Rhys had an intelligence background, overthrew Osbourne in a swift campaign, he crushed the NIM, and the NR retook Coruscant. The article doesn't get very preachy or into too many other details since there are many details lacking. --Danik Kreldin 17:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC) *We are going to review the chronology that we can piece together with logs and might re-write some of the leadup stuff to fit more in line with what happened. --ImperialFH 18:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC) In all honesty, I would like to take the various civil wars following from Valak's reign to Vadim and merge them into a single entity, maybe titled 'The Empire in decline' or something as I would like to move away from such bland titles for events such as 2nd,3rd 4th or 5th civil war over the series of coups that took place and neither Ozzy, Pain or Malus really stayed in power for long enough to solidify their power base and the over all theme of the 4 or 5 year period has been the Empire fading. --ImperialFH 18:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC) *Well, there were three civil wars in total - the first being the fragmentation of the Empire after Palpatine's regime fell. The second and third were both distinct events - the second being Palpatine's imposter (although it is possible it was Palpatine reborn, I've found evidence to support this) vying for control, and the third being the events that encompassed Lorn overthrowing Osbourne to Pain to Malus, and finally Malign solidifying control for Vadim. There's no fourth for Osbourne taking over, or fifth for Pain toppling Lorn or sixth for Malus's counter-coup, etc. --Danik Kreldin 18:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC) Of those three, only one is nominally a Civil War. The first is a series of bad leaders rather than a civil war. The coups were almost always bloodless i.e. the leader would idle out and a new one would step up, and there are no incidents of blue on blue fighting as far as I can remember. Valak got his turn when Caldny retired and his ascension was almost completely peaceful, well at least internally. The second could be classified as a civil war, though I think of it more as an insurrection as well because it did not span a great period of time. The third is nothing more than a series of coups, again, there is not nearly enough blue on blue fighting nor are there huge rifts torn in the Empire from Valak>Ozzy>Rhys>Pain>Malus>Vadim to be a 'civil war'. Also the whole transition from Valak to Vadim only really lasted what 3-4 years? Nor do the sides stay the same, Malign was not fighting for Ozzy and Malus wasn't fighting for Valak. So I would rename the first 'Empire Aflame' the second 'The Palpatine Insurrection' and the Third 'Decline of the Galactic Empire'. --ImperialFH 18:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC) *I'm definitely in favor of this. The more creative we can get with the names of events the better. It helps to differentiate between the 2nd and 3rd civil wars, for example. It's something I've taken into consideration lately when making new battle/campaign articles. -- SW1 Kyle 19:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC) *Seems like the only real dispute at this point is the naming convention, because the facts presented check out and it doesn't seem anyone has an issue with it. But the naming doesn't really warrant a major dispute. There hasn't been a major collaborative effort to change the name, and the Third Civil War title had been used on the MUSH for a few years. Is it that big of an issue to change? Something like "Empire Aflame" is not really a good name for a specific event or chain of events (such as what the Third Civil War covers). It might be a good heading for a chapter in IC history books and what not, but not the specific, technical name. Same goes for Whitecoats and Lorn Rhys - it's a dispute over naming. The Whitecoats name was created by Hawke to give a name to Lorn's side of the fence. They have to have some name. Anything. Even if they don't officially call themselves such, historians and future generations will choose a name to make things easier. --Danik Kreldin 02:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC) **The dispute goes a bit deeper than that, but naming is important. I think the various civil wars are just very poorly named since few even qualify as wars, they are Coup d'etats. Also Civil Wars as I stated previously are much larger in scope than any of the ones we have had, as I stated in my previous post, the Third Civil War is just not a civil war, it was a Coup followed by an insurrection (At best). There were no huge fractures of the Empire, the Neo-Imps were small in scale, they controlled no systems, they had no vast fleets, there were no large battles. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war as to what qualifies as a Civil War. As for the White Coats, the information contained there is completely made up and goes against any RP done leading up to the Coup. IF you check the primary authors none of them had anything to do with the White Coats or whatever. --ImperialFH 03:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC) *There is more in dispute than the name 'Whitecoats'. For example, "The Whitecoats took their name from the white tunic, or coat, that officers and agents of the Imperial Security and Intelligence branches wore during the heyday of Imperial power. Rhys, and much of his supporting staff, was a product of Imperial Security, and retained the coats from their service. Indeed, the moniker carried down to the soldier level, with Stormtroopers of Rhys using a ghost-grey bodysuit instead of the trademark black." Not only where whitecoats never used, the 'coats' were never worn by anyone nor had Lorn ever been a member of the ISB, which wear the white uniform. Stormtroopers never wore a ghost-grey bodysuit. All those things are pure fabrications and should be removed. Furthermore, the history of Lorn's service has been twisted to accomodate this Whitecoat mythos. Lastly, there was no civil war. There was a coup that was carefully orchestrated with the CSA, Draga's organization, Talon Karrde's organization and forces within the empire still loyal to Valak. The only open conflict, post-Selene was with what would become the Neo-Imps and that amounted to a theft of a Carrack cruiser. Hardly a Civil War. Nor was there a Civil War when Darth Pain had her brief stint as Emperor before Lorn came back as Darth Malus. This revisionist attitude on the wiki only serves to discredit it rather than strengthening it by adding 'color'. If you want more details, then place it in talk on articles instead of fabricating events and details. --Lorn Rhys 04:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Civil War? I like characterizing this as a coup d'etat. Seems to fit the facts much better. -- Xerxes 12:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC) :- Which is why I think we need to look at a more encompassing definition for the state of the Empire from about 7ABY-16ABY (Essentially the IC run of the MUSH). Neither the first nor third 'Civil Wars' are civil wars. The first is more like the Soviet Union in the late 70's through the mid-80's. It was a succession of bad leaders who didn't last very long. Some were violent, but it was a series of assassinations and coups. IMHO, lumping all of these various events together and calling them a civil war stretches the definition of a civil war and sort of diminishes the Galactic Civil War, which is by the legal definition a Civil War. The second is a little closer but even then, it was a plot line that lasted a few months and while the false Palpy controlled systems and did engage in battles, I think an insurgency or insurrection better fit the situation, ala The 'True Empire Insurrection'. Because these 'Blue on Blue' events are essentially a flash in the pan, they are short lived and when you compare them to the GCW which has been going on for 25+ years now ICly, they are blips on the radar. The Third has already been dissected and at the end of the day, the article needs to be renamed to something more fitting the event, 'The Lorn Rhys Coup' is about as technical as it probably needs to be. Then that event should be placed into the larger series that is the Empire's decline between the ouster of Valak and the rise of Vadim. --ImperialFH 13:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Whitecoats? I'm all for axing the Whitecoat reference entirely. First, because it was a pure wiki invention to "add flavor". It's kind of a fun story, but if there's no basis in "fact", well it's just not the wiki's job to invent things. And second, the claim that we NEED to have a name for each side doesn't ring true with me. Not every group in history has a proper name. We can refer to them as supporters of Rhys, Rhys loyalists, etc. Giving them a proper name would be just another instance of the wiki not reflecting the MUSH reality. -- Xerxes 12:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Debate Since this debate covers more than just the Third Civil War, I am transferring over to the newly created Debate forum. We can keep these comments here and start fresh there. I'll make my points and we can proceed forward there. --Danik Kreldin 15:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC) End Game I did some editing there to try to add information from my first hand experiences. I did some reorganizing of the order of facts. One thing I still failed to put into it was a sense that Malus' loss of power was done on a gradual scale. We disarmed him politically with the Military government and then isolated him with the blockade while the rest of us struggled to reconstruct the Empire both ICly and OOCly. We did a massive recruitment drive, and Scaven was one of the first people to come over with me when I took the post. So offically Scaven's promotion as Grand Moff was before the palace raids, so was the establishment of the Moff's council, and the rebuilding of Selene. Selene became the Military Government Capital and we worked on a sort of duel system. The Military Government and its Warlord and the Imperial Court based on Dreven. The blockade came as the Military government grew strong enough to organize it. Meaning I'd say some pretty slick deals and a confrontation between Korolov and I, made that very possible. If there was an Imperial medal for surviving revolutions and coups it should be given to Korolov who seems to have played a role in all of them either to defeat them, initiate them, or join at the right opportunities. I find that to be one of the most interesting continuities here, and it seems to show the Empire could really be political if the angle could be discovered. There was limited success with the Moffs. TylerDamion 06:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC) *I recall some of the Moffs you recruited to form your Moff's Council. Carrera was the Moff of Athaniss, Blake Lorent was Moff of Selene after Scaven, Claven was another Moff, though I forget what she ruled over. There were another two or so, but I honestly can't remember. --Danik Kreldin 06:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC) *Yeah it is a bit foggy. I remember trying to find a way to spur RP on our handful of Imperial sectors by giving them Moffs. They weren't totally armed to the task and RP in Imperial sectors has been historically hard to get rolling on the MUSH. If anyone has logs from these days, of Moff Council meetings and etc. If they could post them or if we could make a general call for them that would be good. TylerDamion 06:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC) ** I would say it was all part of an overall plan to rise to the top, more just surviving failed administration after failed administration. Part of the problem is that I think our player base is spread out too much. We have a ton of planets but not so many people. They get isolated into cliques that become us vs. them. It also seems that nobody really wants to deal with the hassle of RPing on Imperial worlds. By hassle I mean not running about openly in full battle armor carrying e-webs and declaring that the Emperor eats rotten eggs to anyone that you come across. Maybe more a condition of the overall malaise. The MUSh just does not feel the same as it did 5 or even 10 years ago.--Korolov 14:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC) ***Well it isn't just the MUSH the players are too. Tastes and views are changing, I guess some of those formulas of the past need tweaking a bit. It think RP is getting sophisticated or has gradually and continues to grow more and more sophisticated and in depth. It just seems like we're hitting some hard times on direction and where we as a player base want to take the game. I personally don't care where the game goes story wise as long as it is going somewhere and it moves at a pace that is both steady and fun. Also I hope when the game rumbles and moves that the stories created, make TONS OF NOISE on bboards and here on the wiki. TP pages and sections being written as they happen like on the TP progress board and articles popping up to describe and discuss events. Yeah the MUSH is big, but the rooms, the ships, everything are just tools. Players will go where the RP is promised. I had 16-17 people on Trandosha just because they wanted some RP. I didn't direct a TP storyline i just said: HEY come out to Trandosha and RP on neutral ground and don't worry about alignment. Maybe we need some of that neutral ground RP, let the NR and Empire and CDU and CSA players interact in a non-violent, non-sinister, non-planning sort of way and maybe develop some rivalries between characters and take our war on the level of words as well as guns. With our small playerbase we need to work on these inter-personal sort of things. TylerDamion 17:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC) ****I kind of touched on the whole having the factions meet up in a neutral area for RP back in the day... the real point behind the Etti IV TP was to bring CSA, NR and Imperial players together and force them to RP in non-violent manners. Unfortunately the non-violent RP didn't go as well as I had hoped, but we had a very exciting and climatic battle at the end of the TP, so it was worth it. I always think it's a good idea to have players meet outside the battleground to forge friendships/rivalries... take Danik and Axel, for instance... sworn enemies on the battlefield, but they weren't at each other throats when just sitting in a cantina or something. But now that he stole my ships, it'll probably be a different story if I ever RP again. --Danik Kreldin 18:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC) ****Well that is supposed to be what Corellia will be when it's story arc is wrapped up. It will be a neutral world where all the factions can congregate, but it needs to be all factions players are welcome on all planets, however they have to realize that each factions worlds have different rules that need to be acknowledged and that can be used to add flavor to RP rather than be a blockade. I mean I have always planned to have factional areas on Coruscant. I want to give the NR room to build a small outpost, the Caspians were welcome at one time to Embassy space and the CSA already sort of has a zone, but it comes with the caveat of RPing in the heart of the Empire. The more I think about it, the more I see the need for something to get all of the players at least talking on civil terms OOCly if not ICly. No more of this , NR players suck, Imp Players suck, etc. --Korolov 18:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)